"FEUD: Capote vs. The Swans": The Final Word

[00:00:01] Speaker A: I think. Come on, thing. [00:00:02] Speaker B: Please, please, please. [00:00:03] Speaker A: Okay. Yes, we're allegedly live. Sorry. Once again, we had technical difficulties, and so we're just going to go right into our show. Hi, everyone. This is Moya with how Betty Davis saved my life. Life lessons from classic Hollywood. And we have on tap for us today, my co partner in crime. Ma'am, introduce yourself. [00:00:26] Speaker B: My name is Georgia. Hi, everybody. [00:00:28] Speaker A: And we have our very special guest again with us. Sir, introduce yourself. [00:00:33] Speaker C: Hey, good morning. It's Norman. [00:00:35] Speaker A: All right. And so we're so happy to have him. You know Norman from the ultimate fashion history. They are on Facebook. That's a very, very, very fun group to know everything about the history of fashion. Not just clothes, but interiors, drawing. I mean, I love whenever I can get on. I just. I'm never bored. I could spend, like, all day just on that page and learn so much. It's just. And it covers everybody, like, from the inception of fashion, if you will, all the way into today. And they even roast some people, too. Not often, but if somebody comes and. [00:01:13] Speaker C: We try to keep that to a minimum, like as the administrators, we definitely don't, like, do a lot of bashing. So we try to keep that to a minimum. But every once in a while, somebody. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Sneaks in, so sometimes some fashion, and we're gonna get into our. So I hope. Norman, did you see that? I tagged you in it. The swans. The Black Swans, if you will. I call them the perfume swans. Did you see that video clip I put up for our promo? [00:01:41] Speaker C: Indeed. [00:01:43] Speaker A: What did you think about that? [00:01:46] Speaker C: I know I gotta get you guys in. I gotta hear what you guys think about the whole thing. Cause we said a lot beginning. So we just gotta roll into this. Cause it's a lot. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Yes, yes. So the promo I did was some black ladies and we. So our film, if you will, is the miniseries that just wrapped up about two weeks ago, the second installment of feud. Of course, we love the first installment of feud. That was just everything. Betty versus Joan. Betty Davis versus Joan Crawford. So I think five years later, now we're in the second, if you will, even though these are all miniseries. The second installment of feud, Capote versus the swans. So I'm going, Norman or Georgia, you can set this up. I'm gonna show some footage. Because I knew who Truman Capote was, but I had no idea who the swans were. So when I found out what feud, I was like, oh, great, feud. But I was like, okay, feud. Who are these people? So, Georgia or Norman, if you want to set it up. And I'll just show some clips. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Okay? I'd be happy to do it. Well, you know, before the real housewives of series, there were these New York socialites. [00:03:01] Speaker A: I'm sorry. [00:03:03] Speaker B: And at this point. At this point, Truman Capote had already written breakfast at Tiffany's and in cold blood. And he was one of the most well known authors in America. [00:03:20] Speaker A: There you go. [00:03:22] Speaker B: He was invited to their New York parties, and he entertained them with his stories and humor. And so he became the toast of New York society. And these women opened up to him about their personal lives, which involved scandal and infidelity, among other things. And he was going to base them as characters in a book titled Answered prayers. And he published two excerpts in Esquire magazine. And Capote's big mistake was he thought they were just too dumb to recognize themselves. And so when they read this, they felt shocked and betrayed to read his very thinly veiled accounts of their deepest secrets. And they ended up shunning him. And they refused to see him or talk to him. Their reaction to his betrayal sent him into a downward spiral of drug and alcohol abuse. And he tries to get back into their good graces again. [00:04:26] Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent. And I'm just showing some clips of the show. Tom Hollander. So y'all don't laugh at me. When I. When it was showing a trailer before it came out, the miniseries, I was like, that's not the same guy. That's not. I thought it was the dude from Spider man. Cause the young guy who plays him now isn't his name. His name is Tom Holland or something like that. I was like, that is not even McGuire. Huh? [00:04:53] Speaker B: Tobey Maguire. [00:04:54] Speaker A: No, no. The guy who plays him now, his name sounds similar to that. But then I thought it was the first guy, Toby. Because this guy looks like Tobey. I was so confused. Guys, I'm sorry. Sorry. So then I didn't. I looked it up, and it was the guy. I only know him from parents of the Caribbean. I think he played in the first one. But this guy killed it. So shout out to him, because we've had many people do. Truman Capote. We had Philip Seymour Hoffman rip to him. Fabulous actor, gone way too soon. He did him. Did a killer job. And someone else. Oh, this guy. He's an english actor, too. And I can't remember his name. He did it. I can't remember his name. I'm so sorry. But anyway, what did y'all think about the performances before we get too much into the rest of it? So Norman has some direct criticisms of the look. But what did y'all think about the performances? [00:05:47] Speaker C: I thought it was brilliant. I thought he really. I mean, if you ever seen actual clips of Truman like this. This show made me kind of, like, go dig and, like, look around for clips and things, like, you know, toward the end of his life, and when he was doing, like, the talk show circuit, he was. I mean, this guy nailed it. He nailed his. His mannerisms. He nailed his speech. He nailed so much of it. And a lot of the self loathing, I think, to really go and create this character, like, a naked version of this. This sad man. He did it. He was really brave, I thought. And I hate the use of the word brave in performances, but this guy played a very unlikable person and was able to try to convey some empathy for him. I want to say slightly some. [00:06:36] Speaker A: He did. I will give him that. He did try to share some. And what about the ladies, the actresses? What do y'all think about what they did? [00:06:48] Speaker C: Those faces? [00:06:50] Speaker A: Norman has some very direct. [00:06:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:54] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Y'all are horrible. Y'all are horrible. [00:07:00] Speaker B: I am. I admit it. [00:07:02] Speaker A: Well, was it makeup? Cause I don't know what the. I know these actresses, but I don't look at them all the time. But wasn't it makeup to age them or that's. Was that really their faces? Cause it was kind of somewhat pulled and, you know, puffy. So I don't know. I'm ignorant. Do y'all know it's sad because, like. [00:07:21] Speaker C: These are people that, you know, we know. You know, they're. They're. They're aging along with us, and, you know, they're really hard. I didn't even recognize Molly Ringwald. I didn't. [00:07:33] Speaker A: I didn't. [00:07:34] Speaker B: Me too. [00:07:35] Speaker C: I know. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Same way, right? [00:07:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:39] Speaker A: Yeah. And her and Naomi. Oh, lord. And what's her name? Calista Flycard, who played Lee Ragsweed. I didn't know it was her. So until they said the names, I really didn't know who these women were, so. And I'm not trying to shine on them or be mean. I just. I don't see them often, I guess. And when I saw him, I was like, whoa. [00:08:04] Speaker C: I will say that Chloe savigny was the one who looked like. I didn't think she's had the least amount done or whatever. She's good, but, you know, it. So I guess as a commentary, I mean, to cast these people and have them look that way, it's a commentary. The vanity of the people that they're playing, too. So I guess that makes sense, that context. [00:08:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I could see you saying. Saying that. Well, let's get into what your feelings on the miniseries as a whole. I think it was. How many episodes was it? Eight. [00:08:41] Speaker B: Eight. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Eight. So Georgia or Norman? You guys, one of y'all go first. You know, if you want to take an episode by episode or just let's get into it. [00:08:52] Speaker B: Well, you know, it was fascinating to watch because you're seeing this self destructive behavior and you're getting a glimpse into what this was like. And for me, it was rather nostalgic because I remember so many of these people. I remember seeing Truman Capote on tv and on these. I saw him once or twice on a talk show. And like Norman said, he really nailed the mannerisms. But even beyond that, I do remember, you know, Lee Radzwell, and. And I was not aware of the rivalry between her and her sister, first lady, you know, Jackie Kennedy. I didn't really know all about that. But I do remember, you know, Joanne Carson. I remember Johnny Carson had married several women, and they're all named either Joanne or Joanna. And I thought that was kind of. Kind of interesting. But the, this, you know, and I see the way the women did these, like, swept hairdos and the bouffant hairdos and all that. You see, like, you know, Mister Kenneth, the hairstylist, you know, he's doing that reclaim. [00:10:02] Speaker A: So that was a real person. That was a real person. He was a real person. Mister Kenneth. [00:10:07] Speaker B: Oh, yes, Mister Kenneth was a real person. And, you know, it takes me back to, you know, the hairstyles and the clothing and the jewelry and, you know, there's a few times in this movie where I really, I remember they go into a hat shop, and it's closing down. It's going out of business, because what happened was, and I'm sure Norman knows this even better than I do, men always wore hats up until about the time of John F. Kennedy, and John F. Kennedy didn't wear a hat. And so men, it started to fall out of favor. Men stopped wearing hats. You remember that? [00:10:44] Speaker C: Yeah. And women, too. Women stopped wearing hats. [00:10:48] Speaker B: And, you know, remember when she goes into the store to buy gloves, and they don't have, like, a special glove counter anymore, and so they stopped wearing gloves. And so I remember when I was a kid and before Easter, I had always gloves, purse, socks, or, like, hosiery, whatever. Everything matched a little. I had a little Easter bonnet or hat, you know, and I remember as the years went by, people stopped doing that. So, I mean, to me, this is all very, very nostalgic, very deeply nostalgic for me, and also very age telling. But anyway, and so one of the things that really I wasn't aware of was how much babe paley was a fashion icon. And this is a true story. She was wearing a scarf one day and was rather warm, and so she took the scarf off, and so she decided to tie it around the handle of her purse. And so she's the one who started that little fashion thing. Wow. [00:11:48] Speaker A: What? Get out of here. That's crazy. Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that, you know, you're seeing, which I agree totally, Georgia, that's beautiful. And I think what you're seeing here is that transition from. There was a time when fashion was dictated by the elite late. They were often matrons. So you had your vanderbilts and you had your asters, and you had your duchesses. They were, like, setting the fashions for centuries, you know, and this is sort of the last gasp of that. And you see it transitioning from, you know, little girls dressing up like old ladies wearing nylons and bonnets and purses and gloves. I mean, like, when you look at it now, it's kind of odd. But, I mean, like, these women set the fashion. Like, these women, you know, were avant garde in their designers. They were, you know, going to Balenciaga. They were going, like, you know, the top drawer, you know, at that moment, that last moment of it. And it really shows you sort of the passing of that moment that, you know, women started wanting to dress like younger women. They didn't want to start dressing like older women. And the scene where Truman takes the. The daughter of his former lover, and he dresses her up and he makes her, like, look like an old lady. So uncomfortable. But then it really shows you, like, that transition. Like these women were of the moment, but the moment was about to pass. And I think the show really captures that beautifully. [00:13:19] Speaker A: And just to dovetail on that, because to get into the life lessons, if you will, about aging and women and, you know, I'm not a feminist by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not ignorant and naive, either. You know, women. What's this? Men age like fine wine, and women expire like milk on a shelf. And it's like, you know, how dare you say that? But, I mean, we don't make the rules. It's just how it is. You know, a man, the older he gets. And that's a big, big debate in what they call a manosphere and a feminism about, you know, why do men as he get older, he can start another family, and he could get a younger woman. And if a woman tries to do that, then, you know, she's called this and that. Hey, look, that's a good debate. But we don't. We don't make the rules. You know, society make the rules. And unfortunately, that's true. It is very true, whether we like it or not. But as gorgeous. See, these women? Because I guess I'm in their age range now. I think they're gorgeous, and they're so rich and sophisticated. But to piggyback off of Norman, time passes them by. And we see in one scene where Truman Capote, he goes to the photo shoot with the young girl he's mentoring, and she said, oh, I go dance. Oh, the guy, the photographer says, I guess a real photographer as well. I forget his name, but I recognize that name. He said, oh, dancing. That's how it keeps you young. And then him and Cz goes dancing at Club 54, Studio 54, that just opened. And they look like ma, Paul, like my come and get. Come on. Go get auntie and uncle off the dance floor. And it's just, how do you. So how do you know when the. How does one bow out gracefully, you know? And I don't know. We can answer that here. But what do you think? Go ahead. [00:15:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that this show, I mean, being of a certain age, like, I'm knocking on the door of 60, so. [00:15:20] Speaker A: And Norma looks fantastic, guys. You would never know that, but go ahead. [00:15:23] Speaker C: Well, no, yeah, you can, but, yeah, no, but so this. I mean, they did speak to me a lot, you know, and being, like, an older gay man and, you know, having many close friendships with many women, you know, I can really relate to it. But the point you're making about that passing of the torch and just having to accept, like, you know, you're getting older, you're not in the mainstream by any stretch of the imagination. You're not hip and. Or cool. And, you know, you. You're showing up in certain places just makes you feel really old. And I know that we were talking about that earlier. I live in, like, a college town, and I show up in some bars, and I feel like, oh, wow. Like, I feel like somebody's grandpa, you know? And so I'm conscious of that. And I think that this show does bring that up. I did see sort of, you know, through Truman's eyes, sort of that feeling of just being less desirable and maybe having to put up with less desirable partners. And, you know, so I wonder what you guys thought about that. How did you feel? The same way about how the women were experiencing. I don't know what you guys thought. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Well, Georgia, you go ahead on and answer that. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Well, I was really kind of taken aback, because he had this marvelous, wonderful friend throughout, Jack Dunphy. And I thought, gosh, this man really, truly loved and cared about him, was a real friend through him, through thick and thin. Then he has these other liaisons with these other men, and you can tell there's, you know, there's no. Not much depth to it, you know, it's like, well, a port in a storm. That'll do, you know. Yeah. I didn't see any real genuine caring. You know, I didn't find that, but I. It's like a drug to him. It's an addiction, because it's like he's trying to find some way to, like, ease his pain that he's going through, you know? [00:17:29] Speaker C: But, George, I'd like to ask you, how is that different than what Bill Paley is doing? [00:17:34] Speaker B: What an excellent point that is. You're right. Bill Paley's doing the exact same thing. [00:17:39] Speaker C: He's got a wonderful wife who is, you know, gorgeous. She's a. I mean, anybody would want to be Bay Paley. And he's doing the same exact thing. So it's really a man thing. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Hmm. [00:17:53] Speaker B: Yeah, but you know, that's right, because Bill Paley was. That's what? [00:17:57] Speaker C: Terrible. Terrible. Yeah. He was carrying on with one of her best friends. Right. [00:18:04] Speaker B: I know. I know. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Was that true, guys? Or was that just for the movie? That him and slim. [00:18:13] Speaker C: True. [00:18:13] Speaker A: Oh, my God. And then she wants to get on Truman, have this witch hunt for Truman. This is. This is rip the treat Williams. One of the most gorgeous men in Hollywood. So underrated. And he look a silver fox. I love a man like Norman. Has silver and gray hair. Just gorgeous. So he just died. I couldn't. What? It was like a motorbike accident or something. He died, like right after this production or something like this. But anyway, rip to him. So he plays Bill Palin. Bill Paley ain't look nothing like tree Williams. Let's get that straight. Let's get that straight. They did him a favor. So. Yeah. Georgia, what do you think about what Norman said? Is it a guy thing? [00:18:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. [00:18:55] Speaker C: You even said that. Georgia, like a guy is allowed to do this and that and have another family. You know, that's. We don't make the rules. You just. You just acknowledge that, basically. Yeah. [00:19:08] Speaker A: Let me just tell you. So, yeah, I agree. But if I were. If the roles were reversed, I don't think women are built like that. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't. I don't think women are built like that. Now, let me just ask you this. Still, in a. In a ballpark of what you guys are talking about, I found this movie. I kept saying, these people are predators. It didn't matter if it was on in Truman's world with the homosexual world or the women, heterosexual world, whatever, everybody. Because they. Because women are predatory, too. Let. Now, I think that's what I'm. Now, I think men, if a man of a certain status. And let me just say that it used to be. Because now you got. Look, y'all. I don't know about in white world or whatever, but in black world. Black world, a man don't have to. And y'all can get me for this. That's okay. But I'm telling you the truth. A man doesn't have to have a whole lot of money if he's a finesser. That's what I would say. If he has the gift of gab and can finesse and look a certain way. I don't know how this works in white world, but in black girl, if he's cool and he looks a certain way, he can get a lot of women and not have a lot of stuff. But. So that's another separate thing. But these women now. And y'all asking me this. Cause, you know, there was a dream segment, and that was the episode with Baldwin. Wasn't that like a dream sequence. [00:20:41] Speaker C: Where they're eating the swan meat and he meets Baldwin? [00:20:44] Speaker A: Wasn't that a dream sequence? [00:20:46] Speaker C: No, that was an actual event. [00:20:49] Speaker A: So he actually met Baldwin? [00:20:51] Speaker C: Yeah. They were contemporaries. [00:20:53] Speaker A: Okay. Because they made it seem like he was dreaming, like they had went places. But I don't. So I don't. I don't know. I didn't try to. You know, I didn't want to look and try to figure it out. [00:21:02] Speaker C: I think the story maybe condensed, like, a longer relationship between the two of them. Like, maybe it just sort of, for the point of a narrative, just kind of condensed it into, like, an afternoon, basically. But I think they had, you know, kind of an understanding of each other for some years. Yeah. [00:21:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me. This is who I'm talking about. Shout out to the actor who played him as well. [00:21:24] Speaker C: James Baldwin was one of these phenomenal people in history. Because was the wrongest person at the wrongest time. Like, he was. No, I mean, he. And he insisted on not being invisible at a time when people wanted him to be like, he was black, he was gay, right? He was, you know, not traditionally attractive. [00:21:44] Speaker A: He was not. [00:21:44] Speaker C: He was brilliant to the point where, like, you know, people didn't understand him. So, you know, this is the point in time when he should be the most invisible person around, and he will not be invisible. He will not be quiet. He actually moves from the United States and moves to France, Paris, and lives his days there in relative peace and quiet, because, you know, he got a lot of flack for being just who he is. And I think he's an interesting counterpoint to Truman, because I think Truman, with all of the assets that he had, being white, being educated, being all the things that he was, he kind of frittered away his talents. He kind of didn't. And James Baldwin did just the opposite. James Baldwin became, like, a phenomenon of his moment. So I think it's interesting to counterpoint that he's the only black person in the entire cast who's not waiting on someone, you know? So I think that they needed to bring that in. Like, they needed a counterpoint. He's the one person I think is kind of redeemable in this whole thing. [00:22:44] Speaker A: Well, you know, to that point, I'm kind of getting all over the way. So I thought, and y'all can beat me up for this, that's okay. I got mad that they brought him in because I recognized that counterbalance, and I was like, don't just. And you're right. If he contemporary, was he? That's why I thought it was a dream sequence, because did you need. Were you just putting him in there because the black people were servants and, like, the only time you saw him. And so let's counter it. Cause I hate being patronized in that way. And I'm not saying that they did it, but that's how I felt. And I guess you can't win. But that's how I kind of felt that they put. Cause I just, like, had they not put him in there, to me, it didn't make any difference to the actual storyline of Capote and these women because Capote didn't listen to him anyway, you know? So I kind of felt kind of patronized with that. But that's just how I am. But, you know, hey, a lot. Look, Baldwin, a lot of. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know who Baldwin is. They should. I know. I studied him in school. It was mandatory in college and in high school. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. But let me just go back to what I was saying. About women being predatory. And I think everyone in this movie, the series, was predatory, and these women had the means. They were rich. So in that, that's why I said, was this a dream sequence? Cause remember, they showed babe or whoever it was, hitting on some blue collar, like, I don't even know, like, a waiter. I don't know who it was, but, like, a dude under her just to get back at. So these people use people. So that's not necessarily a gay or straight thing to me, that's a human thing. Did y'all see that predatory air in this, this miniseries? [00:24:34] Speaker B: I did, but especially, I thought Slim Keith, her character, was probably the most of all. [00:24:40] Speaker A: Mm hmm. You found her the most. [00:24:44] Speaker B: The most predatory? [00:24:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Because, I mean, not only did she, you know, have an affair with Bill Paley right under her best friend's nose, but then she was the one who was really spearheading the whole effort to get back into hypocrites, certainly. [00:24:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I think that there was a scene, and I think this was a dream sequence where they're all sitting in the restaurant and they're all cutting up. They're eating swan meat, and it's very rare, and that they're all, like, they've got blood all over their faces. It was really. I mean, that really illustrated your point very clearly. [00:25:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of it got a little weird. But let's fast forward, because we were talking. So let me put this out here, because before the show, guys, we were talking about what we want to talk about. And so I didn't share this when we were talking about it, but I thought this miniseries was so brutally honest, no one was innocent. You really, and like Norman said, usually american movies, you have to feel sorry for somebody at some point, or they have to be redeemable. No one was redeemable. I thought this movie and was an allegoatory, allegory, rather, for social media. Now, I don't do a lot of research and look at a lot of people's stuff before I get on here with you all, because I don't want to be prejudiced, but I was like, this is social media. Before social media, these frenemies, these fake relationships and connections, and this, what you call that, social climbing. What do y'all think about that? [00:26:19] Speaker C: I think that it's always been there. We're just seeing a different format for it. With social media, it may be just sort of, it changes. Like, who's in charge? Like, you don't have the bay Paleys in charge now. You have 20 year old, you know, you know, chick in, you know, I don't know, she's selling nail polish and she's like the biggest thing. It's just change. I think it's the same thing. It's just shifted on how it's being conveyed and who's, who's given the spotlight, I guess. I don't know. [00:26:48] Speaker A: Right. Georgia, what do you think? [00:26:51] Speaker B: Well, it really struck me about the egos involved here because they felt that when they had their table at the coat basque that they were doing the restaurant a favor. Like, oh, everybody wants to come here because we're sitting here. I mean, it's like, you know, the click in high school, you know, it made me feel that way when I watched it. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yes. [00:27:12] Speaker B: Because they're saying, well, you know, we're like the best advertisement that they could get, you know, because we're here and we're the cool people and everybody wants to come here because we're here. And it really struck me how that was not, to me, it just seemed so shallow. And so I thought, these are grown women in there, you know, they're not, you know, spring chickens anymore and their whole attitude about that. [00:27:41] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:27:42] Speaker C: And I think that this point is made out and it kind of harkens back to what George was saying and what to, you know, what you guys are saying that what other avenue do these women have, you know, in terms of power at this point in time? Like their husbands are the ones that are, like moving and shaking. You know, the women who are working are sort of given nominal titles like editor of, you know, Random House or whatever. They have these lovely jobs. They're not, they're not powerless, but they're not the movers and the shakers. And so their realm of power is the fashion. Their realm of power is the clique and keeping who's in and who's out. Like, that's, that's where they exercise their power. And it's, it's kind of showing you sort of the difference between the spheres where women are able to operate. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:29] Speaker C: At this point in time, you know. [00:28:31] Speaker A: Right. So do you think, has anything changed? I mean, because like you said, you're right. The same spirit of it. But the mo has changed with social media and such. So do you think women are better now, if you will, like socially positioned or is it still the same? [00:28:57] Speaker C: You guys have to tell me. I don't know. [00:29:01] Speaker A: Well, Georgia, what do you think? I don't know. I want you to answer first. [00:29:06] Speaker B: I still think there's some of that going on, you know, and I think Norman touched on that, you know, because some women view themselves as influencers, and, you know, for a while, we. Everybody was following the Kardashians this, and, you know, you've got these. And then to a certain extent, you know, when we have, you know, the academy awards and the Oscars happening, people kind of tend to, you know, focus on that. It's just we seem to be always having people that we seem to follow or emulate more than others to a certain extent. You know, remember when Princess Diana was with us, and now it's Kate Middleton. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:46] Speaker B: And so you. Yeah, in various ways, in various guises and forms, I think there's still a lot of that going on. [00:29:53] Speaker A: And who's doing it to women? Because I find women, we are the most harsh on each other. You gotta wait in line behind a whole bunch of broads to tear a woman down. Cause we will. You know, look how we were scrutinizing these women, the actresses, you know, and some for good reason. But, you know, hey, I'm just being honest, you know, but I think as far as society, I mean, look, we have a lot of women in power, political power, business power. But I think it goes back to. Let's go back to what we were saying. Everybody wants to be loved. And Capote. So the last. So everybody should have seen this by now. Hopefully it's not a spoiler, but the very last episode, it just. I was wondering when they were going to get into his backstory. And the last episode, oh, my gosh, I was triggered. I have mommy issues. This poor man. Shout out to Jessica Lange. She could play a real bitch. And I think this movie, it took some creative license, but I think it was brutally honest. This woman tortured him. Did y'all get that? I think they were trying to say everything he did, the sabotage, the backstabbing, was. The swans were a proxy for the mother. He was doing it in her defense and against her. [00:31:24] Speaker C: Absolutely. Absolutely. His mother. His mother, Ida. I think she was born Ida May, grew up in the rural kind of south, and it was always aspiring. And she basically abandoned Truman when he was a baby, a young toddler, basically, to go to New York to find her fortune. She changed her name to Nina. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:31:48] Speaker C: And she actually did land a fella who was quite well healed, and he ended up adopting Truman some years later. But Truman had those formative years with aunts, and that's kind of like the birthplace of a lot of his creativity and a lot of his early stories are centered there. Also, he was good friends with Harper Lee, who wrote to kill a Mockingbird, and he is a character in her story, which is very interesting. They sort of cross pollinated in their stories. She's a character, and his, for one of his first stories, the grasshop. So they, they. They grew up together. They were contemporaries. But, yes, you're right, Nina, nay, Ida Mae was the first swan, and I think that's the first wound. The first woman who hurt him was. Was her. And. And so perhaps, I think there's a good argument to make that that's exactly what's going on here. [00:32:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought she. I was trying to get some images from the movie. Oh, here we go. Georgia, before I go any further, what did you think about, and we're not justifying anything that happened that he did, but what do you think the point of having that in his story as it relates to swans impacted his relationship with them? [00:33:15] Speaker B: I think it was very important to understand his motivations behind his ingratiating himself with the swans, because I think he was trying to succeed in a way his mother did not. [00:33:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:27] Speaker B: And because his mother tried to get into those social circles and she wasn't able to. And, you know, she did eventually commit suicide. And then I think, in a way, he was able to get in there, and then he got his revenge against them for the way he treated, for the way they all treated his mother. So I think there was a lot going on there, a lot of subtext. But I think, you know, it tells us, like, norman pointed out how he started out, you know, in Monroeville, Alabama. And for him to be able to do that, for him, it was a victory of sorts for him to be able to do that. He was saying, you know, I've arrived. I did this when my mother couldn't. I was able to do this, and it made me understand. Breakfast at Tiffany's a lot better, getting to understand and know him. And he wrote some beautiful things earlier about reminiscences with his aunts that he lived with, you know, as a young child, his formative years. Just lovely pieces. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:32] Speaker C: Yeah. I have to say, like, the piece that really undid him, the Cote masque, if you read it, you know, it's not, and this is controversial on my part, but I don't think it's at the same level as his earlier writing, which was beautiful. [00:34:45] Speaker A: No. [00:34:46] Speaker C: You know, it read very gossipy. It read very snarky. It really wasn't worth. I think it wasn't worth the caliber. It wasn't worth him sacrificing his entire reputation for. It wasn't even good writing on his part. It's fine writing. It's fine. It's funny. [00:35:04] Speaker A: It's funny, right? [00:35:05] Speaker C: But it's not as beautiful. It was his earlier stuff. It's not as well crafted as earlier stuff, which he couldn't have had that as his legacy. [00:35:13] Speaker A: Do you think? The movie, to me, this miniseries seemed to. Not outright said, but, like, I'm not gonna say he didn't have any more to give, but after the huge successes of in cold blood and breakfast at Tiffany's and, excuse me, even a grasshopper, and he just was a, I'm saying, an overnight success, but, you know, kind of just pushed into the limelight and just became this icon, like he said, he became Truman Capote. Do you think he maybe was afraid he couldn't reproduce it? Because to me, the ministries kind of hinted at that, but didn't kind of outright said. And do you think he wrote Lecode Basque and then, you know, that as a part of answer prayers? Do you think he was tapped out or trying reaching. That's what I'm saying. Do y'all think he was reaching or what? Do y'all think. [00:36:12] Speaker C: He wasn't doing himself any favors by drinking himself to death? I don't think that was helping his creative output. [00:36:21] Speaker A: Doing speed and all this kind of stuff. [00:36:25] Speaker C: I think the mini series really points out to this self destructive mechanism that's a part of many, many of us. And I think everyone in the cast sort of, you know, everybody sort of threw away a lot of things that they had to their own detriment. And I think you can see that happen in almost everybody except for maybe James Baldwin. But even, like, you know, babe Hailey smoking herself to death, she's got cancer. I mean, she's still gonna smoke, you know, so it's like this self destructive wish almost. It's a hard topic to think about, but I think that that's one of the things that make this show very disturbing, is that everybody seems to be on self destruct mode, and that's hard to see. [00:37:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. It was. Well, before we go, we gotta talk about the fashion. So, Norman, I'm gonna pull up some. Some photos and just let us know. What did you think about the fashion as our fashion expert here? [00:37:28] Speaker B: Perf. [00:37:29] Speaker C: It was fine. I do want to think that the black and white ball in particular, I think that was sort of like the peak of the show and the peak of Truman's moment of before things started going down. I think people should look up the black and white ball. It was a phenomena of fashion, of who is who and who is there and what they wore. That, to me, was like the pinnacle of the fashion moment of the show. I don't know what you guys thought about it. [00:37:58] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Georgia, what do you think? And some of it, I'm gonna pull up some images. Some of it was, they took license. Cause Ann Woodward did not crash. I did find that out. Cause I was like, did she really come to that? Like, was she out of her mind? But, no, she did not actually go to it. So that was not real. But, Georgia, what did you think about it? [00:38:21] Speaker B: I was just amazed at the creativity and the costumes and what the people were wearing. And I even know of somebody here near where I live. I don't know what inspired her, but she actually had a black and white wedding. Everybody wore black and white. So I wonder if this might have been her inspiration for that, because it was so stylistically, it was just amazing to look at. Beautiful. [00:38:53] Speaker C: Well, interestingly enough, Truman Capote stole the idea from another rival of his, Dominic Dunn, who was a very similar, another contemporary of his, Dominic Dunn did about a few years before, kind of ripped him off. They had the competition going back and forth for many years. Get out of here. Before. I just want to put a pin in. If folks want to know more about the Ann Woodward storyline, there is a novel written by Dominic Dunn called the two Misses Grenville's, which is very interesting. One of the interesting parts of it is that Dominic Dunn's narrator assumes that Truman Capote voice. So if you're reading it, you can read it as Truma Capote is sort of like telling the story of Ann Woodward. It's a very interesting meta thing that these people are all pollinating, you know, in the same field with each other. So that's a fascinating book to read as a dovetail to this story we're talking about. [00:39:52] Speaker A: And the movie they. The miniseries starring the one and only and what's her name, y'all know, with the red hair and. And Margaret. It was so before the swans even came out, I, you know, you know, go on YouTube, and I'm a huge fan. Like 90. All these minutes is all the same. You know, that was in eighties nineties movies when television was fantastic. It was on YouTube. So I started looking at it. You know, you leave it to come back. Somebody took it off of there, so. [00:40:18] Speaker C: I know I can't find it anywhere. [00:40:21] Speaker A: They took it off of there I was. [00:40:22] Speaker C: The book was good. The book was really good. I really enjoyed it. I just read it recently in response. Yeah. One thing about this show is it really got me thinking, you know, looking deeper dives about these folks. I found a couple of podcasts that really do deeper dives. [00:40:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:40:38] Speaker C: It led me to that book, and it was. It's very satisfying read. It's really kind of a little gossipy. Also fills in some of the details about what was going on. Yeah. [00:40:49] Speaker A: And so I didn't know who this person was and what we're. So do y'all remember the E. True Hollywood story? Okay. But then remember, Dominic Dunn had his own show. Power, privilege, or whatever you saw in Georgia. You remember it. [00:41:06] Speaker B: I remember it. [00:41:07] Speaker A: And so he had that on about that, because obviously he wrote about it. But I didn't know. This is, like, years ago. That show is old. So when I saw the two misses Grenville's, I was like, man, it seems so familiar then. Duh. You know, I was like, oh, okay, that's who that is. And then. So they were like, you're right, Norman. Everything comes full circle. So I'm just a messy boots. I'm so messy. So when you're a naturally messy and nosy person, everything comes full circle. And then they do swans, and then you're like, oh, my gosh. So I only knew Ann Woodward, and I think I. Cause Jackie Kennedy, you know, all of America has to know who the hell she was, so. And I kind of learned about her sister. Wait, y'all, let's park it right there. And we gotta be running a little bit over, but that's okay, child. Um, the feud, I hope they do. I predict everyone, and y'all give me credit. The next feud will be Jackie versus Lee, because those two broads were something else. Oh, gosh. [00:42:11] Speaker C: You know, that would be interesting. They would watch. [00:42:15] Speaker A: Horrible to each other. [00:42:17] Speaker C: I would watch. Yeah. [00:42:18] Speaker A: When I watch it. Oh, my gosh. [00:42:20] Speaker C: That was. [00:42:22] Speaker A: That needs to be next. [00:42:24] Speaker C: And that just digs into the whole, like, sister relationship, which is ripe for. Yeah. You know. [00:42:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it was juicy. I mean, allegedly, Lee may have. May or may not have slept with JFK. Then what's her name? Then Jackie got back. Now she show enough. Took Lee's man. Oh, ugly but rich. What's his name? Onassis. I was like, y'all are too much. Y'all doing too much. These women were hard. Look, men may have the money and the power, but the women, we get men in the emotions with the tongue and knowing how to manipulate women. Men got the brute force and we got the mind force. I will say that. George, are you quiet over there? How are you saying nothing? No. [00:43:15] Speaker B: Cause I was thinking to myself, and which one is more dangerous? [00:43:20] Speaker A: I don't know. They're pretty brutal, both of them. I don't. I don't. I think maybe. Cause I'm a woman, I think that the manipulation is much more dangerous. What do y'all think? Y'all quiet. [00:43:35] Speaker B: So y'all, in some ways it is. Well, because. Yeah. When men keep the emotion out of it. Yeah, you could argue that. But women. Yeah. Once you introduce the emotion into it. Yeah, yeah. You're playing with fire. [00:43:48] Speaker C: Which is why Truman represents this most dangerous mix of both. [00:43:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:43:54] Speaker C: You know what I mean? Which is why I think that, you know, it kind of put him in a different and a unique position, because he was manipulative and he was a man. And so he was kind of able to capitalize on both. Both modes of being terrible. I don't know. [00:44:13] Speaker A: I love men like y'all going with that man bashing. I don't have any problem. So I'm obsessed with Dolly Parton. Fun fact. And they were asking her, and guys, I know we're running over, but they were asking her when she got to Nashville, when she was starting out, and did men try to take advantage of her and, you know, blah, blah, blah. She said, well, you know, people try. She said, but I was smart. She said, I was raised around a bunch of men, brothers and uncles, she said, I love men, she said, and I took myself seriously. So she was saying, well, you. Nobody. Nobody was going to get her. And she said, I'm a flirt. So that's why I love Dolly. Cause, I mean, I kind of. I can relate to that. You know, if you. You know, there's a huge scandal going on now, and the rap world and all this kind of stuff. Look, man, don't go to those parties. If you go to those parties, and I'm not justifying anything, but y'all. What's the old saying? Nothing good happens after 12:00 so if you. [00:45:05] Speaker C: Dolly hasn't had a whiff of problem in her entire career. There's never been, like, a scandal. She's never been on the front of the enquirer. She's not having anybody's baby. She's not, like, stealing anybody. She's just been jolly the whole time. [00:45:20] Speaker A: And if she has had it, no one knows about it. You know, she's been pronounced dead. I don't know how many dying or dead so many times. But you're right. If she. If something did happen, you don't know anything about it because she kind of says she sticks to her business. And I think a lot of times, especially in the entertainment business, you know, you gotta go. Your work. But look, even at jobs, George and I worked together a while back, and it was a female dominated place. And I just. I stick to myself. I mind my business and do what I'm supposed to do, and I leave and I'm friendly. I'm Korgia. And, Georgia, you can say yeah or nay to this, but you have to choose to get into, like, Georgia, you were saying, the swans. This was a lot of high school stuff. You have to choose to participate in that foolishness. I mean, am I wrong or do you have no say so in a social setting like this? [00:46:18] Speaker B: Well, yeah, you do choose. And. But you have. [00:46:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:21] Speaker B: You choose whether you want to go into that. Right. But, you know, there's a downside to it. I mean, what do you sacrifice for your popularity? [00:46:33] Speaker A: True. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Very. [00:46:35] Speaker C: Right. And, like, you know, there's going to be a moment when you're, you know, that's on the wane. [00:46:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:46:40] Speaker C: You know. You know, you're beautiful and you're fashionable. Beauty changes, fashion changes. So, you know, you're building your. Your sandcastle. You have to be careful how close you are to the shore. [00:46:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, look, I. That is the perfect place to end this. As the Bible says, all other ground is sinking sand. And in this, this season, right now, of the spirit of sacrifice and unconditional love, these people ain't had none of that. So if you wanna. If you don't wanna deal with the good side of life, go and look at the swans. Have you some wine or something? I don't know. Don't take no speed or no pills or nothing like that, you know? Don't do like Truman, but. No, this was delicious. I hope they keep these up, guys. You think they're gonna do another one? [00:47:29] Speaker C: Hope so. [00:47:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it was very popular. What do you think, Georgia? [00:47:34] Speaker B: Oh, I really hope so. I would love to see another one. It was delicious. It was delicious. [00:47:39] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [00:47:40] Speaker B: It was like, wow. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Right? It didn't condescend to the audience, to me, that much, if at all. I just. I thought it was perfect. Just. I think it ran a little long. I think they could have dropped them maybe, like two episodes, but I guess they want to really flesh it out. But so other. That's my only complaint. But other than that I thought it was great. Well, Norman, you have a wonderful weekend. [00:48:01] Speaker C: And you too, guys. Thank you. [00:48:03] Speaker A: You are a blessing to us, Georgia. You're a blessing to me. Anything else before we get out of here, guys? [00:48:10] Speaker B: That's wrapped for me. [00:48:11] Speaker C: Yeah. That was awesome. A lot of fun. [00:48:13] Speaker A: Well, thank you, guys. Our next movie. And I think we're going to extremes, Georgia, because we went from this. Let me see what it is. Before we get out of here, don't forget to, like, share, subscribe, subscribe to all of our platforms. Let's see, before our next one. Elmer Gantry. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Gantry. [00:48:32] Speaker C: Oh, Shirley Jones. [00:48:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:35] Speaker C: Norman Jones. [00:48:35] Speaker B: And our men, Burt Lancaster and Norman. [00:48:38] Speaker A: You know, you're always welcome to jump in on us at any time and get in, but yeah, so we're going from extremes, guys, from that to this. So from this to that. So we can't. So we'll see you again on the 13th. I know our schedule will be a little crazy because March had more Saturdays. We might get a late to the party to put us back on schedule on the 6th. We don't know, but we'll see. But look for us for Elmer Gantry on the 13th right here live. Thank you all so much for checking us out again. We're on Facebook, obviously, and then we're on YouTube. So subscribe, share, and, like, comment. We really appreciate it. Well, I'm Moya. [00:49:18] Speaker B: And I'm Georgia. [00:49:20] Speaker C: And I'm Norman. [00:49:22] Speaker A: Thank you so much for joining us for how Betty Davis saved my life. Life lessons from classic Hollywood. We'll see you guys next time.